Here’s a question from my mail that is guaranteed to generate a wide variety of opinions and maybe even responses:
My name is Bernadette, I am doing some research into plus-size fashions (UK 16 – 26), and was wondering if you could help me with a query I have.
My question is this- when designing clothes for the fuller figured woman, are there any special considerations which have to be given to either the design, or the fabrics because of the more voluptuous, less sleek body shape? FOr example, do the materials need slight reinforcing at the seams? Are there materials which probably should not be used?
Plus sized apparel is worlds away from what it used to be, the sky’s the limit. New niches are carved out everyday so none of the old rules work anymore. For example, it was once held that you couldn’t sell intentionally tight fitting garments but what of the active fitness market? It’s probably the fastest growing segment of plus sized apparel. Most women want to look nice working out, having a cute outfit in flattering colors is a great fitness motivator regardless of your weight.
As far as seam integrity, do you all think that matters as much as it once did? Provided seams are solid and the garments are well constructed I don’t think overweight women are more inclined than any other consumer group to rip out seams. I suspect the former could be a residual artifact of cultural passive aggressive fat bashing. Droves of thin women wear their clothing too tight. This is just my observation but I haven’t noticed that heavy women tend to wear their clothing tighter than average sized people, popping seams but I’ve been wrong often enough before.
I think product type and line focus are key determinants which are true of any product line. Some women say overweight women need to be better groomed and coordinated than women of normal weight, that they need crisp lines to even out roundness. I would think there’s some truth to that for professional attire but you’d easily find exceptions too so no one can make firm pronouncements either way. My personal interest is limited to the challenge of pattern design. There’s even greater disparity among body shapes as people deviate from the mean. Some women get thicker in the middle, some get larger arms, some larger hips, the end result being that while you target a plus size consumer, you can never fit or please all of them anymore than you could please the average sized consumer along similar constraints.
Feel free to add your two cents.
Hi,
Perhaps you’ve addressed this elsewhere, though I’ve searched and haven’t seen it, so I’m glad the general topic is being mentioned here. In grading plus sized patterns US 22-32 the slope of the front shoulder seam seems to get very deep indeed. As in, it looks impossible to have almost a 15 or 20 degree angle at the high point of the shoulder once you reach certain sizes. Being concerned, I stopped grading the neck line up at size 22. Your response, Kathleen, or other readers, would be greatly appreciated.
Noora
I am plus-sized (if I’m sewing Vogue or Butterick patterns I need something between 18 (neckline), 20 (shoulders and bust if I make what is called full bust alteration) and 24 (hip). At least for dresses, tops and jackets. Pants are another thing, but that seems to be due to what those pattern companies consider a good amount of ease and what I think about it. Probably my size would be smaller if I bought garments, but I’m lacking experience with american sizing here. And apart from socks and shoes and some underwear I’m not buying much garments in Europe anyhow… (Mostly due to bad fit.) But the last pants I purchased were German 48, if I’m sewing Burda I’d need 52 according to their table of measurements. So just to give you a picture.
Even though my size has changed a lot over my life, what has not changed were my proportions. When I was 16 I wore oversized mens shirts to get them over my hips. My hips needed (I’ll stay wit american sizing, because that will probably more understandable to the readers here than the german sizes) 10-12 while my bust needed 6. But when you are 16 oversized mens shirts look cute and also it were the 80th and we all wore oversized and overlarge shoulders. If I wanted something more bodyhugging… well jersey-knits did help. Or I had my grandmother sewing something that would fit.
The older and the bigger I got the less I was willing to wear something that had more ease than needed. So I was no longer willing to buy a jacket that either would fit my shoulders but I wouldn’t be able to close over my hips or that I would be able to close (important for winter…) but would just be to large on my shoulders. That fashion demandend closer fitting shoulders from the 90th on didn’t improve the situation…
So the theory, that the disparity among body shapes gets greater with growing weight is something I’m not really believing in. I just thing the larger you get the less willing you are, to accept things that just have more ease, to fit more people. A lot of my sewing friends of all sizes agree with me. We all sew because rtw does not fit us well enough. You can be a size 10 and have a large abdomen, a size 8 with large bust or a size 18 with A-Cups.
As far as the seams are concerned: Not, they don’t break easily if the garment has a good fit. (And your producer uses good thread…) My own seams never break, because I buy high quality thread. That is all what is needed. What might be a good idea (and I have never seen that apart on home made pants) is a reinforcement on fabrics on the inner thighs. Most plus size women rub their legs together there and so pants need mending there quickly.
What I would like to buy were just fashionable clothes. That are not just tent-sized bags with some holes in it to but neck and arms through. I’d like to see gathers, nice necklines, fashionable colours, fitted jackets, tops that are shorter than knee-length,… what looks best is always depending on your proportion. What I can buy (at least in Germany) is always designed for women that have large shoulders and bust and no waist. More or less cylindrical shape (A friend of mine has that body shape and she looks good in plus size garments and they fit her fairly well.) But that is not all, some of us have small shoulders and don’t want something oversized there. You can be size 24 and have a size 20 waist, some of us are petite also and just look even worse with the “wear long jackets and vests” style that often is offered. Other may be size 20 but have slim legs, knees and ankles so even a short skirt would look great. (On the other side a size 6 can have thick knees and legs and look better in pants or long legs.)
A 16 year old plus size girl may have a all over good and firm body shape and therefore look great in a body hugging knit dress. There are athletic woman in big size, that need room for muscular thighs and there are of course the more shapeless ones, that prefere tent-like garments to hide, but in a pleasing colour and with a nice neckline. Bottom heavy women prefer the focus on a garment maybe more around shoulder and bust, and not on the hem of a jacket at hipline. Others have slim legs and hips, but a large bust and want the focus more on hips or legs… Some like to stand out in bright colours, others want to hide in black or beige…
To sum it up: I don’t the “the” plus sized woman exists. I’d be happy if there would just be more different styles, designed for different body types, instead of just having all plus sized garments designed for one body type. Because I’m not willing to pay for something that is ugly and has a bad fit. And even though I like sewing, it’s not my profession and sometimes it would just be nice to have the opportunity to go to a shop and just buy something NOW instead of planning everything ahead long enough to be able to sew it.
This was probably more a Dollar (or Euro) instead of two cents… maybe it is helpful…?
(My blog shows my garments on me and gives a good idea what I think is looking good on my body type. Most of the patterns are not from the “Plus” Section of the pattern companies.)
Since you asked about special considerations, thought I’d pipe in. I sew outfits (dresses, skirts, tailored jackets) for a lady that is probably around a 22/24 – I think that’s a 2-3x store bought, and am myself a 2x on a good day. (btw, I also agree with nowaks that some of the same fitting issues were in play when I was a size 7 til now.)
My experience from m’lady above and several other friends that were overweight (as am I) that alot of us either liked really light fabrics (because the heavy ones chaf and bunch) from lightweight shirtings to chiffons with a knit undergarment, or like the lady I sewed for, liked to use upholstery weight cottons. She’s laughed once and said “I’m a big girl – I don’t deal with little girl fabrics”. But it is true. The same fabrics are used for a size 4 / 6 as are used for a 20 / 22. I think this is one of the big problems, as is structure around shapes.
From what I’ve heard and experienced, the plus sizes are getting weary of interlock knits (just an overall sentiment of frustration I hear very often) – they make them feel like every bulge is being clung to – especially the side boobs and hippy rolls! But without knits, most of us couldn’t dressed on a bad day and I know most of us are n-e-v-e-r going to be wearing girdles like our grandmother’s did!
It would be kewl if a plus designer could add back in underarm gussets and darts, and under sleeves in a lighter fabric and add some good interfacing where things need to be smoothed, like the hips. Okay, that’s my wish list.
The reason I run around in lycra knit leggings is because it supports all those sore tendons and muscles that have to carry around the extra flab that never went away after I gave birth to the hefty boys. Plus leggins are just dam* comfie!
Seriously tho, I think that’s a big reason that ‘excercise’ garments have been so popular with plus size women. It makes my legs look like they did when I was in college – Lycra can be a wonderful thing – it’s that extra skin that holds everything in so nice and toned. As for longevity, the elastic threads in the garments give out much sooner than any seams!
And as for seams, my skinny children and skinny husband can testify their clothes break down a whole lot more often than mine do. I haven’t bought new in over 8 years, while they are steadily breaking down the clothes we just got at tax time, as I type!
Hope this helps some.
I make jackets for a living…lots of them. Mostly stretch high tech wind/water repellent fabrics, so they can be a bit forgiving. Much of the time, I can simply add to the sides (whether it’s a fitted style with a side panel, or a simple side seam jacket. However much I add to the sides (evenly), I add to the sleeve width where it joins the jacket, so it continues to match the jacket.
In 90% of the cases, I don’t have to add to the neck or shoulders, or even length unless I get a tall person. So my experience is that most women get heavier around the middle, and upper arms. Therefore those 2 things are what gets increased in my simple example.
My fitted jackets are casual fit. Not skin tight, they just have a nice side panel that is flattering. I can get away with this for several sizes past where my largest regular size (xl) pattern goes.
After that, I need to go to a properly graded 1X-4X. But even then, I can fudge it larger by doing the same thing, side seams and increasing arms to match the increase I made on the sides.
Leslie
ps Dont go looking on my website for these jackets….I only make them for people in my store, not for the whole world. Why? Because plus size (and every other custom jacket) requires hands on- in my opinion. Thats where I can tell if you are going to be in the 10% that do not fit into my examples above.
My input would be to make clothes as alterable as possible, to allow for the huge range of body shapes in the larger women. Clever placing of seams could allow them to reduce the back (if they’re all front), or take in the waist, or let out the hips.
I’ve been reduced to speechless frustration at not being able to wear beautiful clothes off the rack because I am all front and no back, with a relatively small waist – and the clothes don’t have the right lines to be changed.
Maybe, with very clever design, your clothes could be inherently alterable through buttons, ties or add-ins?
Re: alterable clothes for different body types
Sadly, it isn’t possible. The shapes of the pieces must fit the body they’re going on.
Here are some torso side drawings:
If you look at the back shoulder areas, above the armscye, you can see that the patterns MUST be shaped differently to fit the neck and shoulder correctly. We aren’t even getting into shoulder width or slope, either. If you overcut the area, then every garment would have to be taken apart (distorting the bias areas), trimmed and reassembled, and the set of the grainline wouldn’t be right.
Not being able to preview this, I can’t tell if I’ve embedded the link correctly. Guess I’m about to see!
penelopeelse also said: Maybe, with very clever design, your clothes could be inherently alterable through buttons, ties or add-ins?
This one-design-fits-all would be a small tent with side ties. I’ve seen some variations on this which WERE cleverly done, in supple fabrics that bridged over, rather than clung to, bulges. You’re still adding visual and actual bulk with the pleating or gathering of excess fabric, plackets for ranks of buttons, etc. They look stunning on a 6′, 110# model, but on a real body, like … a tent with ties.
That’s exactly the stereotype we’re fighting to get free of – that only a tall, slender person looks good.
I’m very glad the question has been asked. Are you starting a new label or are you purely just doing research? As a plus sized woman myself there really isn’t a single fabric that I wouldn’t wear. I like sheer floaty fabrics, jersey, wool- I wear it all. Interlock knits are fine as long as they are cut to “fit” and not “cling”. Foremost though I must say that just because I wear a plus size doesn’t mean I have no interest in mainstream fashion. I’m 33 wear a size UK26 and still want to look on trend. With clever design and consideration of a plus sized figure, most fashion trends and looks can be adapted for plus sizes.
As per a previous commenter, plus size figures come in a variety of shapes so if you’re designing a range you will need to take this into consideration and maybe include variations on a basic item- a dress for example. Maybe one dress cut to flatter an apple shape figure and one to flatter a top heavy figure- but this all depends on your budget too.
Also I think that tops should be long enough to cover the stomach but not so long that they completely cover your behind. Nothing worse than a top that you are forever having to pull down because the hem wants to sit in line with your belly button.
Finally- reinforced seams not necessary, just quality thread and fabric!
The only seam I ever ripped out as a plus sized girl was a crotch on a pair of unisex scrubs pants bc the crotch was hanging to low and even than only when I pulled them off. why the give a school full of 99% girls unisex scrubs I don’t know.
Re: “f you look at the back shoulder areas, above the armscye…”
Thanks, Carol, for the response. Yes, your link showed up fine, and actually I had been looking at a similar diagram over at Vintage Sewing. I have another question, if you don’t mind: is the angle of the front shoulder cut as such to shape the bodice so that there is extra volume in the front of the garment for larger ladies?
The ladies here in the Dominican Republic generally wear their clothes too small or with no ease, so I have even taken to looking around for larger women to see how their clothes fit and if their shoulders seem to have a steeper slope than my own. LOL Or if their garments seem to have the needed room in the tummy without being cut on an A-line, etc.
I am plus sized myself, but I guess you could say I still have swimmer shoulders; therefore my shoulder area is much leaner than what comes below and is slightly rounded. So when I try on the sloper made for myself, the HPS is somewhat hiked up. When I read at Vintage Sewing that my back slope (?) measurement was too short, that answered the question for me, but I wanted to be sure before grading subsequent patterns at an even sharper angle (using Aldrich’s metric system).
(sorry not sure if I’m submitting this twice, took me too long to get my thoughts together, I guess.)
[Noora asked]: is the angle of the front shoulder cut as such to shape the bodice so that there is extra volume in the front of the garment for larger ladies?
Yes.
[back to drawing croquis for people in wheelchairs]
One of the supplemental sets to go with my Master Sketch Pad. I’m using Kathleen’s* “pull” method to decide which ones to work up, in what order.
A regular here wants to commission a wheelchair croquis. I’d much rather work up a set and let her have it for that cost – more templates for less investment..
*okay, Kathleen will want us to know she didn’t invent it. I’ll bet most people who are familiar with it know about it from her.
[Deena said: tops should be long enough to cover the stomach but not so long that they completely cover your behind. Nothing worse than a top that you are forever having to pull down because the hem wants to sit in line with your belly button.]
If the top is cut and sewn correctly, it shouldn’t pull to either the front or the back. The garments commissioned from me have hems parallel to the ground, and they reset that way. Personally, I want more of a tunic, as I’m old enough to feel funny running around in leggings if my crotch area shows.
As a plus-sized woman, I get frustrated by two things–the number of manufacturers who only make tents and by the assumption that my shoulders got wider when my weight went up. I have tried on way too many jackets with shoulders 2″ down from my own.
A few years ago I got patterns from Coni’s patterns which are designed for real plus-sized women. Much to my surprise, I didn’t need to shorten sleeves–put the shoulder where it belongs and my sleeves are a normal length.
One website I use for some clothes is Igigi–they actually have body shapes associated with all their styles, which makes choosing ready-made clothing way easier. I still can’t buy pants, but I couldn’t buy pants when I was a size 8 either. Having a waist which is 8 to 10″ smaller than your hips doesn’t make pants fit in any size range.
Even hem.
My friend here had been gyrating and hopping all over before this shot to check freedom of movement (which was declared fine). We both calmed down a bit and held still enough to snap this photo.
This flurry of posts is the problem with de-lurking.
LOL! Avoid the snowstorm – run back to the drawing board!
Very interesting post! I would be interested in continuing this discussion further.
For right now, in regards to what plus size women want in style…We want the same fashions our skinny sisters are wearing, cut to fit and flatter our size and shape. And baring that, we want garments that make us look 10 pounds thinner.
I have been working with and selling plus sizes for a few years now. I used to know a good bit about it, but every year I know less and less.
Sarah@dosfashionistas
As a plus size woman, I really don’t want a cut-larger version of something designed for skinny gals. I want something that’s going to make me look good as I am, not something that I’ll look at in the mirror and remember the days when that would have looked good on me.
My pet peeve is tops that don’t fit big busted women. There are two variations on this. One, the blouse with completely inadequate bust darts, that’s cut as if plus size women are just fatter tubes with B cups stuck on the front. Two, the style with a seam that’s supposed to go under the bust but doesn’t. On a small busted woman that seam would go under the bust just fine, but because I’m the Blessed One of Boobula The Breast Goddess, that seam has two choices. It can run right across the fullest part of my bust and look like crap, or it can ride below my bust and make the neckline so low that I have to fill it in with a second shirt underneath if I don’t want my bra to show. I want a top that I can wear modestly with the seam in its proper position.
I also don’t want fabrics that will show the rolls. Don’t even try to dress me in some clingy knit, because then people will ask me if I’m pregnant. Nope, just fat, thanks. But my clothes have to move with me, or I really will look like I’m wearing a tent.
And one more thing while I’m laying out my wish list: SEXY NIGHTIES. For some inadequately explained reason, ALL plus size lingerie consists of baby dolls. I’m not a baby!
Wacky Hermit, the Blessed One (love that), mentions two issues:
1. Things designed for smaller women are not scaled up proportionately, so that the design lines and seams don’t hit in the right places. There’s no reason this can’t be done right. It would involve the pattern maker using an appropriate fit model and making prototypes, not extrapolating up from a table. Please check my “even hem” link above.
2. The second is that even if garments fit, they’re inappropriate, such as baby doll nighties.
Kathleen has suggested we move this enthusiastic discussion to the Member Forum (the link is towards the right in the navy bar up top), Patterns & Grading, Designing clothes for plus size women.
As it’s easier to grasp issues with graphics rather than words, how about those interested sending me, in strict confidence, photos of themselves (front, back, side) in garments thin or snug enough (or pinned snug enough to see the figure) or, for the truly brave, your underwear. And then, for general publication, a description of the garments you wish you could find.Guys are welcome, too.
My interest is figuring out the designs and showing (by drawing them up) that it would be possible to make patterns to manufacture them, not produce a line (though I’d be happy to consult on the patterns). My main focus now is developing support sets for my Master Sketch Pad, also linked above, though there’s no obligation to purchase implied. I must trot off to work on those now. I will be back.
The difficulty of marketing competently made clothing to the Wal-Mart mentality is an entirely different ball of wax, and should be discussed elsewhere.
Kathleen has agreed that I can post my email here so that people can contact me privately. Please send only appropriate photos/comments.
carol.kimball@earthlink.net
Kudos to you for the thoughtful reply! As a plus size woman, I personally prefer for my clothing to be “just right” in terms of fit. My personal belief has always been that if the size tag in a particular garment bothers me so much—I’ll just cut the darn tag out! Better to have properly fitting garments than appeal to my own ego and look like a fool to everyone else. I am not alone in this belief among other plus size women.
Sometimes people know that there should be some inquiries made, but they don’t know the questions that they should ask. The person who sent the email was dead on in terms of being concerned that various fit issues might require attention BUT in some aspects these issues are of no greater significance than any of the fit issues that might need to be addressed when dressing a real human body regardless of the proportions.
One of the smartest concepts that I have seen in the plus size sector has been the slow realization by certain companies(Lane Bryant readily comes to mind) that plus size women don’t come in one particular body shape. I think for a smaller company, it might be more advantageous to carve out their own niche by either catering to a particular shape or somehow being able to offer a customized fit.
Thanks so muc for your reponses ladies, all comments are being taken on board.
I’ve had a longstanding interest in plus sizing, because for most of my youth I was in that region. I didn’t actually shrink, the market caught up with me! and now I fit in the top end of mainstream quite nicely. However, not finding anything nice to wear is a real motivator to get a girl into fashion design. I never got anywhere with my own range, (hate selling) but I sure learnt a lot, and I now feel quite confident with the patterns and sizing. I’m consulting to a dummy manufacturer to get the shape right for the plus size figures they have orders for, and it’s quite interesting to see how although all the measurements match the spec, the shape is all wrong. The shape needs to be an in-between shape, not a representation of a specific figure but similar to most, because it’s likely this dummy will be the one that ends up as the default plus size shape for the Australian market. I’ve taken the view that the shoulder and neck region is crucial (everything else can be padded out) so I need to get a shape that is an average of all possibilities. So far so good, although I should have taken a photo and got some opinions from F-I readers. 20-20 hindsight :-)
I do like the idea of allowances for alterations, but to be realistic, it’s more for fine tuning than resizing. And I’d like to see it on all garments. I would have bought a really cute dress today if the dart allowance on the front hadn’t been cut away. I needed that extra width.
I think plus sized people need better stiched clothing ,bigger sizes, and loooooonnnngger shirts (noone makes long enough shirts) please make longer shirts i hate going shopping !
Don’t forget the women who fall into plus-sized clothing because they’re big-boned and not overweight…
It seems most plus-sized clothing is ugly and made for really old ladies (no offense to really old ladies). And I hate seeing people wearing shirts with that horizontal bust seam in totally the wrong place!
As an example in historical costumes, an Elizabethan era bodice can be made to have several points to lace it up, cf, cb, side, and shoulders, so it can be adjusted and evened out at multiple places, but this would be for rtw and not custom and it wouldn’t be exactly authentic.
(This really good art site has paintings by era, nationality, and artist’s name, if you’re interested in looking. http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/ )
Okay, I hope you’re still checking these comments Bernadette.
My biggest peeve as a plus size girl (I’ve been up to a size 24 but am currently size 16) is the cup size issue. In my life, I’ve never met a plus size girl with B-Cups) even though someone mentioned it above.
I think it’s fair to say that once you get past size 8 (US)/size 12 (Aust) bust size increases at least cup a size. I find it laughable when I go into “Plus Size” gal shops and the blouses are still cut to a B-cup. I’m a 16-18 DD (38-40 DD/E) and they never fit properly.
It can be done (ie, make cups larger). Designer Anthea Crawford up-sizes the the cup as the style gets larger.
I’m begging you to think about that it your design.
Oh, and also, no horrible synthetic crepe fabrics and no hibiscus flowers. They’re just tacky, tacky, tacky!
As a plus-sized woman I tend to look for thicker cloth, sometimes the flimsy jersey material hugs too close to my body and shows more than I’d like it to.
Structure is key, anything without shape or too boxy looks ridiculous on me. I find that strapless items are useless to me because, like a lot of plus sized girls, I have enormous breasts and have not found a strapless bra that actually works for me and so I want a good thickish strap to my dresses and tank tops generally so that I don’t have issues with my straps poking out.
No One Wants To Wear Pastel Ditsy Florals. NO ONE. I feel most discouraged when I open up a catalog or step into a store and it looks like they took all the fabrics not even your great grandma wanted to wear and cut them into big sheaths for us bigger gals. I have more personal style than most of my skinny friends, and yet in order to express it, I have to pay more money and go to ridiculously extreme lengths to even try to satisfy my hunger for fashion. Even the most trendy and exciting plus sized stores and labels leave me wanting so much more.
Short of a custom corset, several times more expensive than a good bra (which might also need to be custom-made), you’re right, strapless is not a good option for you.
It’s unfair that quality designs of quality fabrics can’t be produced for WalMart prices. It’s unfair that larger sizes are disproportionately expensive (Kathleen has written a number of posts addressing this issue). There are no solutions to this. However, it IS possible to make the patterns and construct the garments to address this niche.
There are some knits that are supple without being too clingy. They are also expensive and difficult to find as yardage. I’ve worked with a so-called calico, a hemp/rayon/silk blend (going back to where the fabric was originally manufactured, so-called Calcutta) that was a lightweight, firmly woven fabric that draped beautifully. It took fiber-reactive dyes extremely well. It also didn’t grow with wear in heat/humidity, the bane of some otherwise-satisfactory-heavier-weight rayons.
Hi,
yes, There are a few considerations to make when making for plus size women. The fit changes completely. What I mean is the whole way the paper pattern is drawn to cut the fabric is of a different shape as compared to size 0. Shoulders are made to look bigger and the waist is made to look smaller.
Just wanted to point out a good initiative..
For knits, the Craft Yarn Council issues ‘standard’ sizes which are rather weird for larger sizes http://www.craftyarncouncil.com/womansize.html and they’ve been attracting a lot of complaints. On me, their sleeve lengths are a full 3″ too long for instance. However, they are the only standards, and we pretty much have to conform to them in order to get published in garden-variety knitting magazines.
Amy Herzog, who has been designing sweaters for larger sizes, has been feeling queasy about putting out patterns to those measurements. So she’s put up a page asking for large-size volunteers to enter their own real measurements. When she feels she has a representative sample, she’ll compare their average to the cyca ones, and publish any obvious deviations. Do contribute your measurements if you want to see an improvement :-): http://www.amyherzogdesigns.com/keep-in-touch/plus-measurements/
Marie-Christine,
if the plus sizes are wonky–ie your example of too-long sleeves, then the ‘standard’ sizes have problems as well–there is not much difference in the sleeve lengths between the two sets of measurements.
Late to the party. I think there is truth to the idea that body shape variations increase as you get bigger, but one thing I don’t think many designers take into consideration for particularly pear shaped women or women that gain in the thighs, is the “thigh rub” on the inside of pants. IT would be clever to add a thicker fabric or different seams to deal with the extra wear in that area for women of this shape.